My Final Ministers' Retreat?

Ministers' (and Pastor's Kids') Retreat
Date: 16th - 19th March 09 (Monday - Thursday)
Venue: Pulai Springs Resort, Johor
Theme: LeadChangeGrow
Website: http://www.ministersretreat09.blogspot.com/

Time has come again for Ministers' Retreat, yes, this time it would be way down at the southern most state of Malaysia. My parents flew back from the Philippines to attend this retreat. Although I have already begun my ministry in FGC, USJ, I had earlier registered and paid in full, so I guess I will take this as a good chance to just relax. Just make the most out of what would likely be my final Ministers' Retreat. After this I will be part of a different family, although the AG will always be a part of me. Who knows maybe one day, if God calls, I might be back in the AG. But till then...

It was roughly a 4 hour drive from our home to the venue. We decided that we would stop over at Melaka for our lunch. I was always going to have a shot at the durian cendol if we were to stop in Melaka. Durian cendol totally rocks! I'll have it anytime!

We arrived at Melaka at about 2:30pm, we decided to call Ian out for lunch. Ian who is working with The Star newspapers was there helping out with The Star's Brats English camp. He was available so we picked him up from the Straits Hotel. From there we headed straight for Jonker Street.

After lunch we had some time to do some shoppping, which is always good as well. Mikayla got a new toy from her grandfather, but almost as soon as it was paid for, she lost interest in it.

Here Mikayla is signing "scared", she's afraid of the statue. We dropped Ian back at the camp and headed off once again southward.

We arrived at Pulai Springs late, about 6pm, which was dinner time. We got lost trying to find Pulai Springs. The GPS made that same mistake again, you know, the one where the GPS tells us to "turn right here" when we were under a bridge, there was no junctions. We were supposed to get on that bridge over our heads. The auto reroute informed us that the next U-turn was about 5KMs away. When we got to the alleged U-turn, we found out that the road was renovated and there was no U-turn. We passed it and again the auto reroute brought us another 5KMs before we finally could U-turn. That was quite a detour.

We quickly checked in, freshen up, and headed out for dinner which started at 6PM. We wolfed down dinner and quickly headed to the first session. This year the food was not as good as previous years' food. Previously the food has been nothing short of fantastic, Pulai Springs' food is really quite mediocre. During the first session Rev. Ong Sek Leang, our General Superintendant of the Assemblies of God Malaysia, gave the keynote address to the whole fellowship. One of the things he mentioned was served to affirm my decision to move to FGC, USJ. He said "the age of denominationalism has passed". He did not say denominations are history, denominations still exists, I think there will always be different denominations to serve different needs, but the gap between the denominations is no longer as they were previously. Denominations are now coming together and working together to be more effective in reaching the world.

Ministers' Retreat (MR) was often the time to meet up and reconnect with colleagues. This time it was special for me as I have just completed my studies in BCM, and I have been missing some of my classmates. I realized that, like the last edition, BCM students were invited to be the worship band. So I got to catch up with them over mamak during the final night.

The Pastors' Kids' Retreat (PKR) also runs consecutively with the MR. I was looking forward to catching up with some pastor's kids (PKs) however many who were from my batch did not make it this time. I guess I'm growing too old for this now. YAM did a great thing by subsidizing all the PKs that attended the PK sessions. At the end of the camp, when they have attended all the sessions they would be given a RM100 refund. I did not qualify for this as I was married. I understand that they are trying to help make it more accessible to the PKs, but I insist that no matter what, I am still a "K" of a "P"... I'm still a PK, I maintain my identity! Thank you YAM for subsidizing for my fellow PKs.

Lunches were not provided and they were a good time to go out and catch up. My parents who severely missed Mikayla were glad to be able to bring their precious granddaughter out for some of the lunches. Melanie and I tagged along a few times. We had some catching up of our own to do.

The resort boasts two seperate swimming areas (just like my condominium), if you didn't know, we enjoy quite a lifestyle... two swimming areas (not two swimming pools, swimming area, each area consisting of a few pools). Grandfather and granddaughter enjoyed the sun and swim. Mikayla is always trying to have a taste of everything, always sticking her tongue out to taste anything and everything in her world.

There was the usual football sessions in the afternoon, however since dinner was at 6PM, we didn't have much time to really do anything meaningful. It was way too hot to really go at it and so I continue to find it hard to motivate myself to exercise and keep in shape. Perhaps I really need to seriously take up paintball as my exercise. Last MR Reuben was recovering from a ligament surgery, but this year he was playing and boy he's good. He had the physique, great balance, skill, composure. I guess that's what training does to someone. It was fun playing with, as well as against him.

We sat at the back as we did not want Mikayla to be too much of a distraction to the other people, she doesn't understand why we need to be quiet in a service yet. While at the back, Mikayla had the opportunity to make new friends. She had so much space to run around with her new friends. It is the first time that she was allowed to run about in such a big open space. She could only walk about, but she was trying to run to keep up with the other kids. Very soon she will be running about, then we'll have to keep up.

On the final day my father told me to be ready to take some pictures for him, he did not mention why and I did not ask. He had also earlier asked me to help him buy a nice shirt as he was going on the stage. Later I realized that the fellowship was going to pray for him, for the position that he is about to take out. Come April 2nd he will be steppign in as the president of Asia Pacific Theological Seminary's very first Asian president. Everyone was proud of him. So are his children and grandchild. They made the announcement and invited him to the stage. I sprang into action with the very good camera that I got from them for Christmas and got some good shots. I'm sure you'll be seeing them in his site as well. The executive bethren were also invited to the stage to pray and charge my parents.

It was a great retreat. Of course the preaching and sessions was good, but the best part for me has to be when I was able to meet old friends and catch up. The physical side of being being waited upon at the hotel was great as well.

After the MR, my parents returned to the Philippines on Saturday. Mikayla went with them. Melanie and I are now enjoying and suffering the first time away from Mikayla since she was born, which was 15 months ago. We (Melanie, Elroi, Anne, Ian, Jackie, and me) will be flying over to celebrate my father's installation on April 1st. We will be coming back that same week on April 5th. We will bring Mikayla back then.

I have so much on my plate at the moment. I just got back from Thailand, but that's a whole other post. I have barely been at my home these last few weeks. But I thank God that I am once again on the move and liking it very much.

Will try to post pictures and thoughts from my Thai trip soon. But for now I need to wrap things up and get ready for my Phil trip.

In Transition

Perhaps most of you already know, but for the benefit of those who are still guessing or assuming, or for the rest of you who are totally still in the dark, this is the (not so) latest news.

Shortly after my graduation in December of last year, I gave up my role in Canaan. This was effective31st December 2008. I was previously "minister-in-training" here in Canaan Church during my time in BCM. To some of you this might still come as a surprise even two months after effect. I did not previously release any "official" news of this because I wanted to allow Canaan to be the first to make this official the "official way". There was no formal announcement and now almost two months later I feel the time is right to make this "official".

But I know how this works... most of you have already heard from someone. Well, it's no secret, since it's been "official" since last year!

Naturally one of the questions that I have been asked after breaking the news is "why?". Well, to be honest I was not left with much choice. I was all prepared to take up a role in Canaan, especially with regards to youth and young adults ministry. However that was not what I was offered. On top of that I believe God has given me big dreams, but the role offered to me was really way smaller than anything I have imagined. The role was only one factor, another factor is that I have found that some the elder people have not and will never be able to perceive me as their "pastor". I really don't blame them as I am not easily understood. I feel I have very often been misunderstood... the story of my life.

Although the situation was not in my favour I still gave it due consideration and prayer. I consulted with many people. I did not want to make a decision based on what I liked or disliked nor did I want to make an emotional decision. Almost everyone of you whom I spoke to simply told me to just go to another place where I can have room to grow and discover my potential. I thank you for all your kind and wise advice, however I delayed my departure as I considered which mistake I would rather make. Would I rather leave slightly too early? Or would I rather leave slightly too late?

I'd rather leave slightly late.


Some of you who are concerned ask me is "what's your plan?" Well, as the title says - I am in transition. I don't really know what is next. But I am currently exploring some options. I really don't want anything to be in the dark, I like being frank, I like being transparent, I like being myself. So if any of you are curious, or if any of you have heard anything. Come, we'll catch up over a cup of tea. I am willing to talk to anyone who is willing to have a conversation.

I am not in any hurry to take my next step. I thank God for a heck of a helpmate, my wife is currently supporting our family (as she has always been doing). But even if she were not, we are not concerned about finance or providence. I know this sounds careless and a total lack of prudence. But I know my God, he has never failed.

In a way I am glad that God has answered my prayers. I told God that if he wanted me to move out he will have to MOVE me out. It is a real roller coaster the past few months, on one hand I am glad I was left with no choice, otherwise I would very likely just stick to where I am comfortable. On the other hand I am close to tears thinking of that Sunday when I will attend my final service in Canaan before I move out from the church that I love. It would be close to 30 years that I have spent in this church. But now it is clear to me, God wants me to continue to grow and stretch me, Canaan is my comfort zone and I need to get out of it. Yesterday's service when Pas Tony, the Sabahan from Japan, gave a personal prophecy in front of the church I think it's confirmed. I think all of you from Canaan would have heard. I am not acting on that prophecy alone, but the prophecy is like the last straw that breaks the camel's back. It is a confirmation of what God wants for me and my family. Even within the last few months God has already begun to stretch me, it is a foretaste of what is ahead.

I am moving on to the next phase in my life, it is a HUGE step for Melanie, Mikayla, and me. So here I appeal to all of you to really pray for us. We will be praying very very hard and even fasting for God's guidance. It has NOTHING to do with the amount of money I will earn, it has NOTHING to do with the title I will get. It really just boils down to one very simple thing: GOD'S WILL.


As we move on we are not deleting Canaan from our memories, you all will forever be a part of our journey. But now the time is here and we need to move on to the next stop that God has in mind for us. We thank all of you for being a part of our lives in all the major events in our lives, at our various birthdays and Christmases, at our baptisms, at our wedding, at our daughter's birth, so many memories. You all have made our lives richer, and you all will always be a part of our lives. We will carry memories of you all to the next stop that God leads us to. I hope we have left a legacy here as we carry your legacy along with us.

We ask not only of your prayers but also your blessings, that as we leave, we leave with the favour of God smiling upon us. It's time to let us go, please allow us to move on, our time in Canaan is up. Now is the time for a new move, do not hold on to us, but allow room for God to do a new thing with the new people who might rise up. I know that as I leave I take my skills and talents along but I pray that Canaan Church and all her members will continue to grow and bear fruits. I am certain we will cross paths again in the future and I look forward to telling you of how great God has been as much as I look forward to hear you tell me the same.


Thank you all for everything!

My Commencement Ceremony

As many of you would have heard, I will be graduating this Tuesday (2nd December). It would be BCM's 47th graduation exercise, that is some tradition. Here I would like to extend my invitation to all of you who might be interested to participate in the exercise. Here are the details:

Date: 2nd December 2008 (Tuesday)

Time: 7:30pm (light refreshments served at 6:15-7:00pm)

Venue: Bible College of Malaysia

Yup, that's me, more photo op on Tuesday night.

The theme "Finish Strong" is really meaningful to me. I don't believe it is a description of me currently, that I have already finished my theological studies in BCM, and that I am now finishing it strong. But it is a exhortation to the class of 2008 to continue to fight the good race so that we can truly finish well. Yes, it is the close of a chapter of my life, but as this chapter ends I am opened up to a whole new chapter, blank and ready for me to make history and make my life count. Some schools call it a commencement ceremony and it really is exactly that for me, the end of one thing and the beginning of another. I am dreaming big things but being very sensitive to God at this time to lead me to the next place that he wants to bring me to. I am raring to put my training into practice now.

I can't help it, I just feel thankful to all those who have poured into my life or stood by me all this while, so here I thank you all (again). If you are thinking of buying flowers for me, forget it. Don't waste your time and money... I prefer cash! Many of you realize I'm graduating and asked me why I didn't tell anyone. It's because I am not really interested in making it a big deal, more than anything it is just a sense of relieve. Even then many of you have told me that you will be adjusting your schedules and giving up your evening to be there for me, I appreciate that. Just come if you're interested, your presence alone more than what I expect. Again, please don't bother with the flowers.

If you guys want, we'll have dinner after the graduation, perhaps we can go for A&W, the one with the drive-in. That one has air-cond and is open 24 hours.

...Finally

I seem to be getting a lot of email and messages with that word recently. So much so that I am compelled to make a response here. My dad even made a great big announcement on his website about this. "Why?" you may ask, what's all the fuss about?...

It is because of Melanie!

I am (finally) graduating from BCM after spending a good 5 years there doing my training for ministry. Many of you thought the Key Magazine Photo Session post was in fact the graduation itself, don't just look at the photos, at least read the title! Anyway what normally takes 3 years to finish went on for an extra 2 years, almost double the allocated time. So I guess it's only warranted that we all feel relieved, especially the lecturers and staff in BCM. My wife, who was one of those who were, understandably, extra relieved, sent out emails to everyone inviting them to my graduation ceremony (on December 2nd). I was also on her mailling list. So some of our close friends, and not so close friends as well, started replying the email. There was some congratulatory emails, but many were "sigh-of-relieve" emails. Melanie is just proud of me. I believe her pride is justified.

Anyway I don't blame you all for being relieved. It really is my fault.

Most of you know what happened during the last 5 years. But for some of you who might be wondering here's a very quick look back on the last 5 years of my (academic) life:

Year One: The Gung-Ho Year
My parents has just resigned as the pastor of Canaan Church and was due to be sent to the Philippines as missionaries. A new pastor took over my church. Church was different, with all the transitions taking place I was kind of dazed at it all.

I did great for my first couple of terms in BCM. However, being me I lost my focus and attention halfway through the year.

Everyone knows my passion for ministry, when I (finally) got myself into BCM I was mighty relieved myself. I was so crazy about ministry (but mostly I'm just "UN-crazy" about my studies) that I spent too much time "doing ministry" and totally forgot about my studies. Guess what... I flunked a whole lot during my first year, trust me when I say "a whole lot". This was the year that I took over the youth ministry and also organized the RE:tuned concert, which was a huge project for someone like me to be handling. I also got involved in organizing the CDFM's (Christian Dance Fellowship of Malaysia) week-long seminar. I got involved in a lot of things, outside of my studies.

Year Two: The oh-crap-what-have-I-got-myself-into year
Halfway through this year I began to realize that in this American system I cannot just pass my tests, course papers carried a whole lot of weight. By the time I start to realize that I will need to sync or swim, damage has already been done. RE:tuned was deemed a success, other churches were telling me to go at it again next year, I declined. I put many things aside and began to set my sights on my studies. Then came along another butterfly...

In February I proposed to my girlfriend of 6 years. I was irresistable, and she said "yes".

Year Three: When I Got Married
We planned to get married sometime during Valentine's Day this year, however, due to my horrid results I was placed under "academic probation", which meant that I was to stay in my school almost all the time except for "weekend ministry", which is the practical side of my theological training. Another record I broke, apart from being the first Alumni's child to be back in BCM was that I was the first student in the 40-plus years history of the school to actually fail the same subject twice. That subject was "Religion and Cults". Because of that, I was issued an ultimatum by the school: no more failling or my credits will all be forfeited, and I will have to start my studies from scratch.

Marriage plans although postponed still went on. Melanie and I got hitched on June 11th this year. We decided that since we got married I should take some time off from BCM to honeymoon a little. Took one term off before I eased myself back into BCM by doing part-time studies. As they say "a wedding lasts only a day, but a marriage lasts a lifetime". I don't think that spending this time building my marriage was time lost or wasted. I now enjoy my marriage and family with Melanie and Mikayla, who are the gems in my life. I love you both very much.

This was also the year that I got suspended from school for failling to do my "Christian Duty". Part of the practical side of the training, Christian Duty was to help develop our character and all that jazz, you know what I'm talking about. I was in charge of cleaning this classroom, normally Christian Duty should be done on Monday, which is kind of like our off-day, minus the Christian Duty. However since I was no longer staying in the BCM dorm as there was no more room in the couple's dorm for my wife and me, travelling all the way to BCM from Selayang just to perform my "Christian Duty" was really out of the way. I had classes on Tuesday, which was when I cleaned my classroom. However there was a night class in my class on Monday, so after a few dirty nights the lecturer made a complaint. I was called in for questioning. Situation was explained as it was but the committee mentioned that my mistake was not informing them that my Christian Duty would be done on Tuesday instead of the regular Monday. So BCM suspended me for a term. Later on, my church suspended me for another term as they said that they did not have a chance to "work on me".

Year Four: The Reluctant Part-Timer
The suspension killed any chance of me graduating this year. But by this time I had done most of my subjects. My studies were approximately 80% done. I am close to fulfilling all my credit hours, however I could not graduate this year because there were some compulsory subjects that I need to pass before I can graduate. I wanted to try to graduate this year, but sadly I was informed that some of my required subjects were not being offered this year. Since these were compulsory subjects, they were subjects that were important to the school, so they did not allow me to do these courses via correspondence. So I was "forced" to take my studies part-time as there were no other courses to take, can you believe that?

In a way I was also glad that I was "forced" to be a part-timer, since I cannot afford to fail ANY of my subjects or face a total meltdown in my life and studies.

Around the month of May I decided to opt for an internship with Faith Charismatic Center. I found that I have been in this church for too long, not only have I become complacent, but so also have the people around me. It was time for something new, something to jolt all of us (me and my church) out of our slumber. So I took up the offer from FCC for an internship. I committed the rest of the year to them. I really enjoyed my time in FCC. I was told to take charge of the worship ministry in that church and also had the very nice opportunity to partner with Joash in the youth ministry. I also had my first taste of preaching on a Sunday service. FCC offered to take me up on a more premanent basis. I brought the offer back to Canaan where they asked me not to take up the offer but return to Canaan where there will be "more opportunities" for me. Since my commitment was first to Canaan and being a man of my word, I rejected the very delicious offer and returned as instructed.

Year Five:
This would bring us to the current year and the reason for this post. This year, after completing my final 2 compulsory subjects in BCM. I will only graduate in December, but unofficially, my studies is done and dusted as of August this year. I was looking forward to getting a taste of full-time ministry. I was hoping that I would be given more to do as previously promised, however I am left feeling that I could do more, both as part of my training process as well as to fill up the time I have on my hands.
Now I am less than 1 month away from the day that I have been working towards for 5 years. It has not been a waste of time. My training had to be complete and thourough. Some of you would have personally heard from me of my struggles (in school, in ministry, and just basically in life as a whole), you would know that I have not taken the easy way out even though there were many chances to do so, and no one would have blamed me for it. But I stuck with it in the hope that it would make me a better minister, a better person. My family and close friends who have been rooting for me have got themselves way more than what they bargained for, standing by me for 5 years instead of the intended 3 years. I understand why you are all (finally) relieved. Here I want to take the opportunity to thank some of you who have stood by me through thick and thin.

Thank you... REALLY!
Words don't really do justice here, but from the bottom of my heart... Thank you!

Melanie and my parents are the ones who really felt the burden and carried it with me. Melanie worked while I studied, and they are just worried for me fulfilling my call. It's not a money thing, but it's a destiny thing.

My closest friends, namely, Ke Xin, Angela, Susie, and Joash (and few more I'm sure I missed). Who have lent me their strength in times when I was weakest. How they did it was merely by being there and being who they are.

Some of my Christian relatives that acknowledged God's call in my life and helped me to prove it to those who did not see it.

Even some of my non-Christian relatives like my in-laws who were so gracious and patient with me, I pray that one day you will come to know the amazing love and grace that we can all experience.

Some of you Canaan Church members and Christian friends who really did more than offer me moral support.

Of course not forgetting the lecturers and pastors who have shared their insights with me. And also my classmates who made it that much more interesting. As we step out in ministry, I know you are my network, you are my support, I pray that I can be the same for you. Big dreams, let them be God's dreams and let him bring them to fulfilment.

It is an understatement and cliche, but I really would not have made it. It's been a tough long journey and I am FINALLY done with it. Now I look forward to the ministry opportunities. I pray God will reignite that gung-ho spirit that I had when I first went to BCM, that I will leave BCM not just with a head full of knowledge but a heart full of FIRE!

Key Magazine Photo Session

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I had a graduation photo shoot in BCM on the 22nd of September. I finally have the results of that shoot. Here are some of the pix from that day. Would have included more pix here but each pic is about 5mgbs, so uploading them was a real hassle.

Diploma in Theology

Class of 2008

Guess what... mortar board toss!

There are more pix but I'll probably have to resize them before uploading them. Anyway I will not publish them here now but leave some for the school magazine that will be published around the same time as the graduation. You can catch me in my gown on during BCM's Graduation Exercise on the 2nd of December.

I preached the second time in chapel last Wednesday (8th October), so now I am totally done and ready for my graduation. I preached on what I am going through during this point in my life... the main idea is to do things God's way, even when we don't understand the whole situation.

Yes... I am finally graduating... (that's my response to all of you who have been asking). Thank you for all your support (and patience) and THANK GOD!

Religion and Cults: Chinese Deities & Ancestor Worship

Here are the two files that I promised to share with the rest of the students in the Religion and Cults class in my church:

*Click on the link to download:

"Malaysian Chinese Beliefs" by Lemuel Yee

"Ancestral Worship and Christianity" by Victor Lee


The Religion and Cults class was quite refreshing. Instead of the usual lecturing method, the class was split into groups and designated to research certain religions/cults. Then we were supposed to present it in our class. Since I took this course in BCM my group volunteered to be the first to go. I wish we could have had more time to prepare a better presentation. My group was designated to research on the Chinese Religions, which includes the 3 major religions: Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism. Also included the various chinese deities, ancestral worship, religious practices, etc.

I made my presentation and informed the class that I am opened to questions, and that we would learn from each other. After my presentation a lively discussion ensued. Many of my classmates took part in the discussion, sharing their thoughts openly. In a flash one hour had already passed and time was up. I offered to make these two files available for those who are interested in studying the subject further. So here they are.

The first paper is my term paper for my Religion and Cults class in BCM. I chose to do this paper so that I could interact better with the Chinese people that I meet. Especially my relatives. So the paper is more focused on the local Chinese beliefs.

The second paper is from Victor Lee my classmate from BCM. His paper is on the topic of "Ancestral Worship and Christianity". Feel free to visit his blog as well, incidentally his blog is called "My Reflections". We had no idea our blogs had similar names until much later.

Feel free to comment on the papers or my group's presentation. There is much that we can learn from each other. We could continue with our discussion here.

BCM Term Paper (Galatians 5:16-18)

Finally I am at the end of my time in BCM. Here is the final assignment that I have to pass up. Hopefully now I will be able to keep my blog a bit more updated.

I promised the students in my Bible study class that they will be able to have a look at what a BCM assignment is done so I am uploading it here for them. Some of you might be curious of what is expected in BCM. So here is a taste of BCM...

http://www.mediafire.com/?2z1fx5o8w2j

Moving On...

I have completed my course work for the course "God, Revelation, Man". I emailed the assignment to Rev. Lim Yeu Chuen last Friday, and I was on time, which is really a rarity! I find Pas. Lim's class tougher than others due to the long term paper that he expects from his students. But I find that it is through the term papers that I really go in depth and really get a grasp on whatever the topic of the paper is.

However, this time around Pas. Lim decided to try out a new format for this course. He decided to give us the option of the usual 15-page paper, or to start a blog and interact with the readers of our blogs, on top of writing a short 6-page paper. This was a very refreshing idea, and as an internet-savvy student, I immediately decided on the latter option, hence, this was how this blog came about. I guess this is why I did not hand up my paper late as I usually do.

"God, Revelation, Man" is more commonly known as "Systematic Theology 1". "Systematic Theology 2 and 3" consist of subjects like Christology, and Ecclesiology and Eschatology respectively. I have already completed "Christ and Salvation" (which is Systematic Theology 2), and "Church and Last Things" (which is Systematic Theology 3) previously. Now all I need to complete my Diploma in Theology from BCM, is to pass my "New Testament Biblical Interpretation" course. NTBI is the final compulsory subject, and I already have more than enough credits to complete me DipTh. The course will be offered by BCM next term, so I am really excited to graduate and to get more involved in ministry.

I want to thank all of you for reading and interacting with me through this blog, you have helped me to complete this subject. I will continue to maintain this blog and will try to make small changes to make the blog look better and more useful. I want to continue to address some theological here, but at the same time also widen the scope of this blog to cover some ministries that I am involved in as well as to give you a small peek into my life. Many people have been pestering me for more pix and vids of Mikayla (my almost 3-month old baby), so far I have been telling them that this blog is for theological discussions. Now I will be able to get more hits from Mikayla's fans.

Hopefully this blog can be used as a tool not only to express my personal reflections, but it will help others to ask the right questions, and hopefully offer a reasonable answer to their search. Please continue to check back from time to time. At the moment I am already considering a few questions that I am faced with in real life (not a question from my lecturer). I hope to be able to hear your views out, come to a good conclusion and apply it into my life and ministry.

Till then.

RE: GRM Question #3 "The Trinity"

I believe that most Christians would roughly know what the Trinity is already. At the same time we still do not really fully understand such an important doctrine of the church.

The Bible did teach on the Trinity, however, the term itself is not found in the Bible, so it belongs to systematic theology rather than biblical theology. Without the doctrine of the Trinity it would be impossible to explain the three persons of the Godhead. The term “Trinity” was first formally used in the synod held at Alexandria in A.D. 317. It was used to describe the three persons in the God head, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

These three persons make up the Trinitarian Godhead. We do not worship three Gods but one God. The three are one and have been one since the beginning of time, and are of the same “ousious” (meaning essesnce). *Now go back and read that again in slow motion*. A few very important statements have been made in a rather short sentence, so take you time and have another read.

Let me just summarize and explain a little…

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, but we have often been accused by the Muslims and Jews as tritheists. But get it right, we worship one Trinitarian God. How do we reconcile this? We do not. We have to realize that we are finite and limited while God on the other hand is the total opposite. We cannot expect to fully comprehend something that is infinite and without limits whatsoever.

There is not one person in the trinity that precedes another, nor is there one that came after another. A common error is to think that since there is a father and there is a son, so naturally we conclude that the Father must have come before the Son. Then what happens to the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit? It only seemed natural that the Holy Spirit came after the Father and the Son. This is a wrong view of God. The three have been one right from the get go. How do we reconcile this paradox? We simply cannot. However keep reading…

The three persons are also the same in essence. When it comes to the subject of the essence of God the term used by theologians is “ousios”. The three persons of the Trinity share the same ousios. Some might have the opinion that the Father is the soul, the Son is the body, and the Holy Spirit is… the spirit. This is a faulty theology. Each person of the Trinity is as “god” as the next person in the Trinity. So when Jesus made statements that seemed as though he was “lower” than God the Father it is explained by theologians as an economic submission. It is a functional submission and not a lower status or essence. The three persons of the Trinity are of the same ousios. How do we reconcile this? Again… we do not.

Now this is my favourite part of explaining the Trinity. At almost every corner in this doctrine we encountered some kind of paradox that we simply cannot comprehend or reconcile. Here’s the beauty of it all: God does not expect us to be able to understand and explain all of this. Theologians throughout history have dubbed this the mystery of the Holy Spirit. Even the great thinkers had to conclude that there are simply things that cannot be understood no matter how much we tried.

I have avoided using analogies so far because analogies can never fully answer our question anyway. Often analogies are used to attempt to describe the Trinity. Here are some of the more common analogies used to explain the “three-in-oneness” of God. However I cannot stress enough how these analogies are merely man’s finite attempt to grasp an infinite concept. Impossible!

The “egg analogy”: the outer shell, the egg white, and the egg yolk makes up the complete egg.

The “H2O analogy”: H2O exists in three different forms. Whether liquid, steam, or ice, it is still H2O.

The “man analogy”: a man might be one singular person but this one man is at the same time a father to someone, a son of someone, as well as a husband of someone.

The “sun analogy”: with the sun we know it is a giant orb of gas in outer space, at the same time it also emits heat and light.

The “math analogy”: For those who like to answer this question in a mathematical way, this might help. We always wonder how can the Father + the Son + the Holy Spirit = Trinity. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But this analogy gives us another formula to solve this question. 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Some have suggested this is how the Trinitarian Godhead is one.

As you can see from these analogies they can help us to have a better understanding of the Trinitarian Godhead. However analogies are just analogies, we cannot use limited human terms to quantify and describe God. Just as the video in my previous post, God is indescribable and unfathomable. But it would be a big mistake to just leave God as unexplainable, in this situation the means is as important as the end itself. In this journey that God brings us on the journey is as beautiful as the destination because in our search we will be able to come into a closer relationship with God. *Note that in my post on “revelation”, God reveals himself to us to draw us into a relationship. That is what we will gain from searching him even in the area of the Trinity.

Some are in the opinion that when we meet God at the end he will explain all these mysteries to us and it will be revealed to us, and the veils will be lifted and we will fully understand all the mysteries in the universe. For me this notion would be like trying to fit the waters in the seas into my mouth. It will not fit. True, when we get to heaven we will be perfected. So we would be perfect humans, like Adam and Eve. So question is: did Adam and Eve comprehend the mystery of the Trinity? I doubt it. Even if we used 100% of our brains we would still not be able to fit 1% of infinity into our puny minds. I believe this is the fun part of heaven and eternity, that we will be spending the rest of eternity discovering and getting to know God better and better. And God is infinitely able to show us something new and exciting every single day for the rest of eternity.

In this I take solace.

I know this post raises even more questions than answers, but I am alright with that, and I think God is alright with that as well.

RE: "There MUST be a God"

Found this video inspiring. Trust me, it is really worth watching (especially in full screen).

Indescribable - Louis Giglio


Here's another link of the same video. The audio quality probably better however no full screen view. http://www.268generation.com/videoplayer/player.php?videoid=Indescrwide1&quality=hi.

Be inspired.

GRM Question #3

Here are the final (set of) questions:

1. What is Trinitarianism? Did the Bible teach on Trinity? Is the word Trinity found in the Bible?

2. Jesus in numerous occasions seem to suggest that he is lower than God? Can you please explain this?

John 5:19 - Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 5:30 - By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Matt 24:36 - “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

3. Are the persons of the Godhead in heaven one or still remains three?

RE: GRM Question #2(A): “Revelation”

I think this question really revolves around the term “revelation”. I once read that studying theology is like joining in on a conversation that has been going on for thousands of years. As time pass I find this analogy so true. If you have taken part in an internet forum/discussion board that has been going on for a long time you would realize that new terms start to pop up to better describe what they wanted to express. Not only that, the meaning of some words begins to morph and take on new meanings. It is very much the same in theology. Webster’s Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language reflects the same by defining “revelation” as “a revealing; something revealed; (theol.) God’s manifestation of himself to man; something revealed to man by God”.

Below are some more explicit definitions of the theological terms by theologians themselves (including “general revelation” and “special revelation”). Understanding what theologians mean when they say “revelation” will help us answer this question.

Revelation:
By this we mean God's manifestation of himself to man in such a way that man can know and fellowship with Him. – Erickson.

God has taken initiative and has, in intelligible ways, disclosed himself to people. – Lewis & Demarest

General/Universal Revelation:
General revelation is God's communication of Himself to all persons at all times and in all places. – Erickson

General revelation refers to the disclosure of God in nature, in providential history, and the moral law within the heart, whereby all persons at all times and places gain a rudimentary understanding of the Creator and his moral demands. – Lewis & Demarest

God everywhere gives knowledge of Himself. – Rodman

Special Revelation:
By special revelation we mean God's manifestation of himself to particular persons at definite times and places, enabling those persons to enter into a redemptive relationship with him. – Ericksson

God’s self-disclosure through signs and miracles, the utterance of prophets and apostles, and the deeds and words of Jesus Christ, whereby specific people at particular times and place gain further understanding of God’s character and a knowledge of his saving purposes in His Son. – Lewis & Demarest

Conclusion:
Now that we have understood the meanings of these words we can now tackle the question at hand.

I believe it is God who gave us the ability to discover him. If God were to choose to hide himself from us none of us would be able to know him. I hold to the calvinistic view that man is totally depraved, that man does not even have the ability to find God on his own terms. Man did not find God, it was God who revealed himself to us. God chose to reveal himself to us through nature, creation, history, and even by sending his begotten son Jesus Christ. I believe that when it comes to revealing himself, God has the prerogative. It is totally up to God whether or not he chooses to reveal himself, it is also up to him how he wants to reveal himself. It is totally up to him. Our part only comes in after receiving God’s revelation. Then we can choose to accept or reject him.

We do not deserve any of this, however God chose to reach out to us. This is amazing grace.

... I am still amazed.

RE: GRM Question #2(B) "All Babies Go To Heaven?"

The question on whether babies go to heaven has been bothering me, tormenting me, eating away at me even. The question holds extra significance to me. Mikayla, my three month old “cutiepie” has been keeping me busy and away from many things. One of the things, among many things I severely miss is – movies. I have even been feeling left out from conversations when people start talking about the latest movies. I can only comment on whether the poster looked good, and the posters mostly looked fantastic! Mikayla is such a gift, she has been learning to make sounds. About two weeks ago she began to say “gooh”, then it was “ang-gooh”. This few days she has been making all kinds of new sounds. Melanie and I are ecstatic. My parents (a.k.a. Mikayla’s grandparents) are missing out on all the action as our internet at my home has been out since the last time they were around (11th March). The combination of baby and limited connectivity has kept me away from the blog. I am now resorting to other means…

As you can clearly see, I have some problems focusing. Back to the question at hand...

Let me just simply explain some of the theories on whether babies (or the mentally handicapped) go to heaven when they die. As far as I understand babies and mentally handicapped people fall into a similar category. There are some differences between the two but I believe, in relation to the question at hand, their lack of judgment and/or ability to think puts them in a similar position. I do not mean to offend anyone here and I sincerely hope that no one will be offended by my stand or by my choice of words. The “politically-correct” language changes by the week, I cannot keep up, however I sincerely mean no disrespect.

To deal with this question we will also have to consider the theology of original sin. “Original sin” simply states that all we are all born sinners, this is particularly clear to me from Psalm 51, among other Bible verses. I agree that we are all sinful from the time we are born. Since Adam and Eve sin has been passed on from generation to generation.

Yes we know well from the Bible that we all are born sinners and God is just in condemning sin. But apart from verses that condemn sin in general, there are no verses in which God deals with the sins of a baby. However, I find that there are verses that suggests God’s grace, love and mercy towards babies.

The Roman Catholic Theory:
Traditionally Roman Catholics believed that anyone, anyone at all – baby or mentally handicapped, has to be baptized in order to go to heaven. Still births, miscarriages, or babies who were too young to be water baptized will go to purgatory. There they are said to enjoy an “eternal state of natural happiness but without being in communion with God”.

Because of the believe that absolutely nobody can get to heaven without first being baptized, the Catholic Church also came up with the ordinance of extreme unction, or the baptism of the dead. This gave believers of the Roman Catholic faith hope for their loved ones, especially babies or the mentally handicapped.

I find this theory very leaky and Roman Catholic church is trying to plug the holes in their stand. I do not believe in “purgatory”. Firstly it was not mentioned in the Bible, but mostly because the concept of purgatory (or limbo) distinctly contrasts with the teachings of the Bible. Christianity is a religion of love and grace, the idea of purgatory tells me that I need to work for my salvation. As far as I understand, purgatory is a place for people who God cannot decide whether to send to heaven or hell. I would be very disappointed if God made me go through purgatory. It would be as though God’s grace was not sufficient to save us. And if God’s grace was indeed sufficient, then it would seem to me that God is simply just being mean. Jesus came all the way, became flesh, died a bloody death, and after all that told me it was all for nothing. It is as if a person traveled a great distance to visit, but refused take the final step to come into the house.

I believe water baptism is merely a symbolic act. The act means nothing in itself unless we understand the meaning behind the symbolic act. But water baptism becomes meaningful when we understand we that we were once dead but now we live through Christ’s death. If someone goes through the act of water baptism but does not understand the meaning behind the symbolic act, it does nothing for the person. So would a baby understand what water baptism means?

The Roman Catholic church is a great church, however not perfect (yet). I believe the Roman Catholic church are on the brink of a reform. One of the changes that might be made would be on this theory. For more please see: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/04/20/limbo-in-limbo.html. Also see http://www.newadvent.org for more on the Catholic faith.

Rejection Theory
This other theory holds a baby will go to heaven because a baby, or a mentally handicapped person has no ability to reject God. There are people who believe that in order for a person to deserve hell, this person must reject God outright. The verse normally cited to support this view is John 3:18A baby is not able to choose to accept God but at the same time also has no ability to reject God, therefore, a baby who cannot reject God will not go to hell and instead go to heaven.

There are also some who believe that babies are not capable of committing sins that “deserve hell”. Sins like those mentioned in John 16:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9. Revelations 20:11-15 tells us that on judgment day we will all be judged according to our works that are recorded. Again a baby would not have been responsible for his/her actions and incapable of committing a sin. A factor of “the age of accountability” also normally comes into play. The “age of accountability” is like juveniles who are judged by different standards than those of an adult. This term is not found in the Bible itself but it refers to the age when a person is able to understand the Gospel. The age of accountability is subjective an differs from person to person depending on their individual mental development.

Believing Parent Theory
Based on 1 Corinthians 7:14, it reads: For the believing husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

This theory would mean that not all babies would be saved, except only those who are children of a believing parent. The first part of the verse is hard to understand and explain, however the latter part of the verse is clear enough.

I think this stand is not unreasonable. Some might think that if God were like this it would not be fair to other “innocent babies”. In this world of “political correctness” we might have become too politically correct for our own good. I believe nothing is fair, when Jesus who was sinless had to bear the sins of the world, I do not think anything in this world can ever be said to be fair (or unfair) anymore. If God were to be “fair” we being sinners would all be in hell, end of story. Instead, God chose grace and mercy over “fairness”.

Willful Transgression Theory
As you can read from the funky names of the different theories you would know by now that I am making names up for different theories that already exist. This theory is mainly based in Deuteronomy 24:16 which reads: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin".

This verse acknowledges the theology of original sin but puts it in the backseat. The Bible deals with men as reasonable, responsible, and accountable beings. Instead of judging men’s original sin, the Bible seems to indicate that “every man shall be put to death for his own sin”. Only those who have willfully sinned against God will be judged and punished.

...

I believe there are many more arguments for as well as against babies going to heaven. However I believe I have enough evidence to reasonably and rationally believe that my little baby Mikayla will be in heaven if she dies before the “age of accountability”. I am definitely satisfied with what I have found, although it is by no means comprehensive, it is sufficient.

Even though I believe babies will most likely go to heaven when they die, this does not mean babies who are alive are regenerated. I do not fully understand the matter at hand and cannot reconcile this contradiction. What I have discovered evinces that babies who die most likely go to heaven. However, I doubt there will be anyone who can comprehensively answer and satisfy everyone on this subject. Like many age-old questions, all we can do, until we meet God, is to just trust that Our God is just and he will do what is right (Genesis 18:25).

Further readings? Go to:-

For reasons and verses, for and against babies going to heaven. Recommended for the easy point form reading format. Read and judge for yourselves.
http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/babys.htm

A transcript of John F. MacArthur’s sermon on the subject at hand.
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0142.htm

An article on the same subject.
http://www.all4god.net/when_babies_die.htm

RE: Darwin (January 29, 2008 11:16 PM)

Darwin,

Thank you for contributing to our discussion. However I must disagree with you, there is a god. Your argument is not convincing at all. You claim that there is no God but yet you begin your post by crying out "oh my god!". Ironic, who is your God?

I do not disagree that animals and mankind evolve. If Charles Darwin is right about evolution then I believe it is God who gave us the ability to evolve into something better. Man gets stronger, faster, smarter. But claiming that God does not exist is not a step forward, it is a step backwards. There are many great scientist and philosphers who hold to the existence of God as well, who is Charles Darwin?

I know that there are some Christians who force their believes on others. I, on the other hand, believe that God gave us all the gift of free will. Nobody can force anyone on what they believe, but in the same way that you came into my blog and used strong words to state your case, Christians too feel strongly about their case and are passionate about it, and sometimes, Christians take it overboard. No matter, people can say what they want, the way that they say it might be wrong, but at the end of the day you must make a decision for yourself. You have to choose to accept God or reject God, there's no two way about it.

Indeed Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species" is a classic, but have you heard of the Bible. It is still the top seller, translated into thousands of language. There are also many other "classics" that argue for the existence of God.

The great philosopher/theologian St. Augustine once said: "You have created us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you..." Deep inside everyone of us is a "God-shaped vacuum", it is the way the Creator created us. I believe it cannot be ignored. Trying to fill it with substitues (like money, fame, good works, etc.) will not fit, nothing will fit. God is the only one that can fill the God-shaped vacuum.

I quote from the greatest of all classics, the Bible. The wise man Solomon had everything. He had all the money, fame, fortune, wisdom and knowledge, he even had all the women he could want! And Solomon who had it all wrote in Ecclesiastes: "Also He (God) has put eternity in their hearts... All is vanity... Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all”.

... That is my conclusion of the matter as well.

GRM Question #2

So here we go again, this is the second question, in two parts:

"How can we know God? Deal with the issue regarding General revelation and Special Revelation?"

and...

"What happens to babies and young children when they die? Do mentally ill people go to heaven?"

I am already having headaches... but let's see where we can get with this.

P/S: In the meantime we can still continue our discussion on the previous posts.

RE: GRM Question #1 "There MUST be a God"

Thank you all very much for making your opinions heard. Looks like I've been thrown to the deep end of the pool. This is the main reason why I did not want to respond earlier. I acknowledge that I do not have all the answers, and I also did not want to frivolously give answers that do not hold water. Like some of my fellow classmates, this blog has consumed us, some of us are even blogging in our dreams. I have thought through the first question and now it's time to sink or swim.

Before I go any further I just want to clarify a few things. I seem to have offended some people by, what seems to me, some very innocent and neutral blog posts. The other reason why I did not make my response earlier was because I wanted to try to keep this blog a neutral ground for anyone and everyone who would like to join in this dialogue. So I did not want to make my opinions heard so soon. Remember, it's a dialogue, please try to respond with some respect to the blogger and especially to the other readers. We all have our own opinions on the issue, and although some of us may feel more strongly than others we should still respond with some respect to each other. Nobody is shoving anything down anywhere. Otherwise I can understand, and appreciate you, for your strong and passionate responses. Please continue to take part in my dialogue.

How I answer the question at hand depends very much on who asks the question. Since the question is thrown into the air, it is so much harder to provide good answer to satisfy everyone. Books can and have been written on this subject. So any response I make will be terribly short and simple in comparison. What I will do here is attempt to give a general respond. If there are some interesting comments I will try to respond more specifically.

Let me just recap the question at hand:
"Many religions claim the existence of God. Does God exist? How do we know He existed? There are so many gods, which is the true God? How do we define God?"

Many religions claim the existence of God. Does God exist?
Yes, I do believe God exists. (That was easy...)

How do we know He existed? (This is the difficult part of the question...)
I do not know how you would interpret the existence of God, but how I know he existed is through a personal experience/encounter with God. However, this answer holds very little water if you do not know the person giving the answer. This is what a Christian might call a life testimony. It seeks to proof the existence of God through a changed life. Christians claim that someone who has experienced God will be changed for the better.

But there are still other arguments for the existence of God. There is the argument of intelligent design. This view argues for the existence of God by claiming that the whole universe designed by someone intelligent. Nature in all its beauty and splendour is pointing us to someone, something. Every leaf on the trees, every grain of sand on the beach, every unique snowflake, every part of creation is pointing us to a creator who created the universe and everything in it.

There is also an argument of the "uncaused cause". This view argues that everything has a cause. For example, some people claim that humans evolved from apes, and apes evolved from monkeys, and monkeys etc... Long story short, we can all be broken down to individual cells, and cells broken down to atoms, and atoms to sub-atomic particles. If we were to follow this argument through all the way, we will inevitably realize that there has to be a supreme creator. Someone has to be there at the very beginning to cause the first chemicals to come into existence, and thus start the chain of reactions that ultimately led to the existence of homo sapiens.

I believe that there are many other arguments for and against the existence of God. However, as you can read, I clearly believe God exists. Perhaps some of you have other thesis for or against the existence of God, care to comment or respond?

There are so many gods, which is the true God? (Another toughie...)
These days people are not so concerned about the question of which is the "true" God. The post modern prediposition causes people have the opinion that whatever works for them is true and right, and whatever that does not work is discarded as "untrue". Post modernity does not have absolutes, no absolute right, no absolute wrong; just what works for each individual. However it is my belief that although there are many issues that are grey and without absolutes, and issues that require a tension of both extremes; I believe that on this issue of a true God there is only one and true God.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6)

How do we define God?
This is such a subjective question. Depending on who you ask "god" could be anything. To some their god is their money, to some love is their god. However generally speaking, God is defined as a higher supreme being or beings. Some religions who claim that we are all gods in our own way. Still some others claim that God is an unknowable being. However being a Christian, I believe in a supreme monotheistic God.

Responding to the question took me a full day. I think this blog post is worth reading as it took me almost a full working day to post! I really hope that we will all learn from each other through this blog. I do not just want to make myself heard but I also want to hear you out as well. Looking forward to hearing your comments.

GRM Question #1

Like I said this blog is part of my "God, Revelation, Man" requirements. Here's the first question that was given to us to post and interact. Do not be afraid to to express yourself. All genuine opinions will be accepted. Please consider this question and leave your comments.

"Many religions claim the existence of God. Does God exist? How do we know He existed? There are so many gods, which is the true God? How do we define God?"

Looking forward to hearing out all your opinions.